450 Bushmaster vs 45-70 Govt

Discussion in 'Main Message Board' started by Harbaugh08, Dec 16, 2017.

  1. Harbaugh08

    Harbaugh08

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    Hey all,

    Been looking at getting a new deer gun for next season. I live in Iowa and they just legalized using straight walled cases this year. I have talked to quite a few guys that have used the 45-70 with great results in knock down as well with range. My dad just recently showed me some interesting info on the 450 B. I really like the ideal of being able to get the 450B in a AR platform and the fact that it weighs less then most of the Govt's.
     
  2. Richard Coody

    Richard Coody Silver $$ Contributor

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    Shiloh Sharps 1874 Long Range .45-110
     
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  3. joshb

    joshb Gold $$ Contributor

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    Consider a Ruger #1. Nice lite little rifle. It can be loaded with mild loads or heavy loads that will almost knock you down. They hold their value, too.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2018
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  4. matthias

    matthias Gold $$ Contributor

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    If you have no desire to go over 300 grain bullets the 450 Bushmaster is for you. If you already have a pile of .452 bullets around the Bushmaster is for you. Basically it is an extra long 45 ACP.

    If you want heavy bullets and lots of choices from 250 - 500 grain the 45-70 is your choice. If you want choice in platform 45-70 is your choice.
    Sharps - and the reproductios
    Lever guns- Marlin, Winchester ,browning
    Ruger no1 and no3
    H&R single shots
    The old eddystone bolt action customs
    Trapdoor Springfield
    You get the idea
     
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  5. akajun

    akajun

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    458 socom uses .458 bullets
    Go as heavy or light as you like
    That is if they let that tiny shoulder fly?
    If not, I’d buy a marlin or Henry in 45-70
     
  6. Catfur

    Catfur Silver $$ Contributor

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    One caliber I've been looking at lately is the .45 Raptor. A rebated rim .460 S&W, that fits in a AR-10 action. If you can't kill it with a 300+ grain bullet at over 2100fps, it's gonna take a lot of killin'.
     
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  7. XTR

    XTR

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    Where to start.

    The 45-70 was the second cartridge ever officially adopted by the US Army. It's been around since 1873s. It's originally designed for black powder, it has huge case capacity for smokeless loads. With a Ruger #1 or a Winchester highwall it can be loaded to slobberknoker-retina separating levels. And if you get one you need to do that once and get over it. (350s at 2400FPS from a 24" barrel in an 8 lb rifle) All of the big 45s are 200 yards and in rifles. Yea, you can shoot them to 1000 yards, and BPCR shooters do it with black powder, but look at the drop on any of the 458 cal bullets at any speed you can reasonably hold onto. The bullet drops between 18 and 21 inches from 100 to 200 yards.

    I own two 45-70s, a modern Winchester Highwall with a 24" barrel and a C. Sharps '74 with a 30" that only gets fed Holy Black and galena. I like my single shots.

    In a lever gun you can get into a 45-70 in a guide gun, or a 450 Marlin. The 450 Marlin duplicates the 45-70 in a modern rimless case that is a little shorter. That is not a problem, the 45-70 is way to much capacity for smokeless powder.

    In factory loads for the 45-70 you have to mind what you are buying. Many of the loads out there are designed to be safe in the trapdoor Springfields that are still around. The 450 Marlin is only out there is real world 21st century loads.

    I like the 45-70, I own two and love loading for them. I have a buddy who shoots a 450 Marlin and doesn't reload. If you are not planning to get too into reloading I'd get a 450 Marlin. It hits deer (and one coyote that I know of) like Thor's hammer, ammo is available off the shelf that works.

    The 450 Bushmaster is a .452 as opposed to a 458 for the cartridges above and as such uses pistol bullets. Anything with a .458 bore gives a larger selection of rifle bullets.

    Ignore the posts about the 458SOCOM, it's not a straight walled cartridge.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2017
  8. Harbaugh08

    Harbaugh08

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    Thank you for the info. You seem to be very educated on these rounds. Your input is extremely helpful.
     
  9. M-61

    M-61 "Quis Separabit" Gold $$ Contributor

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    Interesting rule they had. I have to wonder about the origin. To prevent 22LR? It certainly eliminated a vast amount of 'straight' walled cartridges that are very acceptable for deer hunting.

    ( I had to look this up and I see it seems aimed predominantly at handgun cartridges from what I see, with a list of what is acceptable.
    So much for my 22-15-60 Stevens)
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2017
  10. matthias

    matthias Gold $$ Contributor

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    Another one I forgot about is the 458x2 or 458 american. Just like the 450 Marlin with a standard belt instead of the longer Marlin belt. Cheaper to make brass for sure.
     
  11. ab_bentley

    ab_bentley I fix stuff, sometimes.... Silver $$ Contributor

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    IMG_20171202_194452.jpg Resized_20170926_113407.jpeg

    I've been building 450 Marlin rifles for a few years now. They typically are Winchester 70s that start life as WSM. I've built them on Tikkas, Savages, Remington, and Winchester rifles, typically ending up in the 5-7lb range. They feed and eject perfectly, giving much better range/ power vs the 450BM or a lever action 45-70. If you can stand it, you can churn a 350gr out at 26xx with a 22" barrel without issue.

    Adam
     
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  12. Jaybo

    Jaybo Gold $$ Contributor

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    45-70 would be my choice of the 2. But I like the 444 Marlin. lots of bullet choices for the 44cal
     
  13. 284winner

    284winner Gold $$ Contributor

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    Just ordered a Savage small shank 45 raptor barrel from saturn . Its a 22"varmint contour and threaded for a brake. Underwood sells ammo or you can purchase it from starline. Pricier option than the 450 bushmaster but noticeably more power overall. It's a 300 yard MOA gun. For Ohio or states where limitations exist for rifle cartridges, it's the ticket. As stated above, if your gonna keep the bullets at 250 grains or less, it's the ideal round. Pushes a 240 grain bullet around 2800-2900 from a 22" barrel. Terrible BC but for 300 yards or less, it will work.
     
  14. XTR

    XTR

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    I got to my "can you stand it" level in the mid 2400s with 350s from a 24" barrel.

    These days my smokeless load in my 45-70 is a 405Rem load over 3031 at about 1800 FPS. It will shoot in one end and out the other of much anything in North America. If the T-Rex reappears I'll re-visit my loads, but for now mines plenty for me.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2017
  15. joshb

    joshb Gold $$ Contributor

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    I love the old cartridge, too. I have a Winchester 1886 remake, a Ruger #1 and I have an old Siamese Mauser on the way. If memory serves, the Ruger can be loaded to near 458 Win Mag loads. They'll loosen your fillings, gut your deer and hang it in a tree for you.;)
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2017
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  16. B Nettesheim

    B Nettesheim Silver $$ Contributor

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    444 Marlin in a Winchester 94
     
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  17. USMCDOC

    USMCDOC

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    i had a Marlin 444 with the Monte Carlo stock and micro groove barrel.. i could not get that thing shoot worth a hoot.. but i wonder about the newer Ballard style barrels
     
  18. 1shot

    1shot

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    454 Casull. T/C Encore, 22" barrel. 300 gr. XTP Mag at 2,150. 3/4 moa groups with an ES of 6.

    Lloyd
     
  19. BobbyJ

    BobbyJ

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    If you want more penatration and power the 450 BM is for you too.

    Unless you want to spend time reloading the out of the box experience of the 450 BM using factory ammo is going to be more power more penetration than the 45-70.

    Factory will not load the 45-70 hot because some guns can't take the pressure. The 450BM was made later and was made to handle hotter loads. The only way you can out do the 450BM is to experiment on your own with reloading and all the time and equipment that goes with it. And careful not to use the hot load in the guns that can't handle the pressure.

    That said I would still love to have a 45-70 lever action. Wondering if they are as accurate as my Ruger gunsite in 450bm though. I can shoot sub moa at 100 yards using 250gr off the shelf hornady.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2018
  20. mgunderson

    mgunderson sling shooter Gold $$ Contributor

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    Paul Matthews 40 years with the 45-70 is a must read for anyone thinking about a 45-70. A little bit of everything in the book history, hunting, reloading, cast bullets, paper patching, stout loads. If you have the itch you will end up owning a rifle that shoots it.

    https://www.amazon.com/dp/0935632840/?tag=accuratescom-20
     
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