.358 bullets for moose, bear, elk

Discussion in 'Varminter & Hunting Forum' started by wboggs, Nov 25, 2011.

  1. wboggs

    wboggs Site $$ Contributor

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    Anyone have any experience with the heavy 280 gr. Swift and 310 gr. Woodleigh loaded to .35 Whelen Velocities? I was considering the load for moose, bear, elk in thick cover.
    Thanks
     
  2. Con

    Con

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    If your barrel has a 1:16" twist, the 310gr Woodleigh isn't the best choice as you'll find its tipping at 200 yards. That's a long way out there, but still not a combination I'd carry knowing its limitation. I'm not confident of the heavy spitzers (Swift 280gr or Woodleigh 275gr PP) opening at Whelen speeds, particularly if a long shot crops up. Personally, I'd look at something in the 250gr range ... but if you have a 1:14" or 1:12" barrel on your Whelen ... the 310gr is certainly soft enough to show expansion on game and to dig deep.
    Cheers...
    Con
     
  3. wboggs

    wboggs Site $$ Contributor

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    Thanks for the info. My barrel is 1:12 designed for the heavy bullets. Have you used Woodleighs? My concern is about penetration with them.
    My .35 Whelen is the improved version and easily gets 2400+ with 275 gr (old Hornady) and 2300+ with 300gr (old Barnes). Neither bullet is now offered.
    Bill
     
  4. Con

    Con

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    I've used Woodleigh's on game plus tested in inert mediums, as have friends of mine. To limit penetration you really need to push them above their recommended impact velocity and hit something in close. The RN projectiles do open considerably faster however at 2300fps you'll still get lots of penetration ... but they're not for hitting animals going northwards from the southern end. A Barnes TSX is better there. It's a two edged sword as penetration requires lessening the frontal area of the projectile, however a nice wide wound channel comes from a nice widely opening projectile. Even turned virtually inside out from high speed hits the Woodleigh will not come apart. They often come out of dead animals looking very ragged, 'torn-up' and ugly. In my opinion, the ability to open wide and dig deep is an advantage and I'll accept lessened penetration to get it. If you wanted more penetration, the Woodleigh 275grPP would be a good option if you wanted a heavy weight projectile, the 250gr PP if you wanted a standard mid-weight. I dont know exactly why they work as well as they do ... but the 225gr Woodleigh hydrostatic has been used and despite being a 'solid' drops medium-to-large sized soft-skinned game quite well with good sized exits. But they can be tempermental to get feeding.

    Want to hear something crazy? When Woodleigh brought out the 275gr the PP construction took me by surprise as I'd spoken to him about it 12-18 months earlier pushing for a 275gr that would work from 1:16" barrels. Now I love my 35cals and I love RN projectiles ... so rather than complain I started to draw down Woodleigh 9.3mm 286gr to 35cal to get what I consider the 'ultimate' projectile in my 358Win. ;D Quick opening, deep penetration (I like broadside shots to sail through) ... but that RN construction often gives an indicator of a hit more so than spitzers which is an advantage in brush. Tell me why that is and we'll both know.

    On Friday I took delivery of a Ruger stainless/synthetic in 358Norma with 1:12". Looking forward to trying that with the Woodleigh 275gr and 310gr. The 310gr will turn into pancakes ... I reckon any animal would find that hard to walk away from.
    Cheers...
    Con
     
  5. H2OBUG

    H2OBUG

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    Don't over look the 225 Accubond or the 250/225 Nolser Partition-- both shot well in my 350 Mag

    The 225 sierra was designed for 35 Whelen velocities-- never could get it to shoot very good

    I shoot 180's in my 356 Winchester

    The old 225 NBT is gone so the 225 AB has replace it in my 350 Mag
     
  6. wboggs

    wboggs Site $$ Contributor

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    Hi Con
    Your experience is exactly what I'm looking for. Interestimg that the 275PP penetrates better than the RN 310. I imagine that is because the large lead RN that starts expanding faster. I am looking for a bullet to penetrate lengthwise if possible. Like you, I have found the Barnes X to be the best but the heaviest they make is 225grs. The bullets now all seem to be bonded and that large frontal area you mentioned does indeed limit penetration and the retained weight does not overcome it. The Nosler Partition is not bonded and does penetrate well but leaves a very small exit hole that does not bleed well. In my opinion, I want a good blood trail if I have to trail an animal. One of the best bullets I ever used was the old Speer African Grand Slam. It was bonded but a very heavy jacket limited expansion to short distance and it would the penetrate with a frontal area somewhat between a solid and a conventional SP. As I remember, they cost about $ 5-6 apiece for the 500gr. .458s. The old Hornady and Barnes were not bonded and the Barnes 0.049" jacketed soft nose penetrated vey well but the Hornady had a thinner jacket the opened too much. Have not had much experience with Swift. The A Square DTRN looks promising and it is made in a 275 gr. Tried some of them in .458 and they were good but the Speer was better. Naturally, they are expensive and I wish they had a 300gr. The best penetrating bullets for me usually have a SD of around .330-.340.
    I may run some tests with the 275-310 Woodleigh, 280 Swift, and 275 A Square.
    Your .358 Norma is going to be hard on bullets and I suspect most will overexpand.
    I would like to close on a personal note.My father was in the 2nd Marines in WWII and was rotated to Australia for R&R between battles. His love for Australia was second only to his homeland. A hearfelt Thank You to your fellow countrymen. Bill
     
  7. wboggs

    wboggs Site $$ Contributor

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    H2O Bug
    Thanks for your reply. Which bullet penetrates best in your .350 Mag.? My Improved Whelen should get about the same velocities.
    Bill
     
  8. H2OBUG

    H2OBUG

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    Accubonds did best on pigs here in south LA-- They are just a bit better down range too--
     
  9. wboggs

    wboggs Site $$ Contributor

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    H2OBUG
    Did you try Nosler Partitions? Have you found that the Accubonds penetrate better? The accuracy doesn't surprise me but I would think that the larger frontal area of the expanded Accubond would decrease penetration.
    Bill
     
  10. wboggs

    wboggs Site $$ Contributor

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    Con I got carried away on my previous post to you and forgot to answer your question about the impact effect of round nose bullets. It is the effect of the larger frontal area. Think of pushing on an object with one finger and then using four fingers with the same force. You can tell the difference in the way it feels. In addition, the spitzer shape usually expands slower while the large exposed round nose expands more rapidly to an even larger frontal area.
    I have observed this effect on Cape Buffalo shot by a .375, .416, .458, and .500. With each increase in caliber, you see an addition impact effect on the animal. It is not due to energy because the .416-500 Nitro all have roughly the same amount. Besides, Buffalo are practicaly immune to energy. Hope this helps answer your question. Bill
     
  11. Con

    Con

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    wboggs,
    If looking for a projectile that can potentially go length-ways ... I reckon your back to the Barnes 225gr TSX or a 225gr Woodleigh hydrostatic solid. My preference by far is always a softer 'soft' and to draw the line at any shots that require placement behind the last rib and going forwards on an angled shot. If an animal is wounded however then obviously all bets are off and a rear end shot is back on the table. I'm back to a pair of 358Win rifles (just a personal preference) after having owned a 35Whelen and 350RemMag. In the 358Win the 225gr Partition performs really well, but tends towards the 'hard' side, I never tried the 225AccuBond as its too long for my rifles ... but others that have tried them stated they worked well (from 35Whelens) and they definitely don't open as wide as Woodleighs.

    Regarding RN projectiles ... that impact effect of RN projectiles in brush I find advantageous. When in thick country, that first shot may be all you get and I prefer a visible indication if I can get one. Its just a self-confidence thing ... an animal that runs a significant distance on a good shot with follow up shots that have no apparent affect can be soul destroying at times.

    You father's service began a relationship that has lasted a long time between the US and Australia ... and long may it continue. His service is much appreciated.
    Cheers...
    Con
     
  12. PREMOD70

    PREMOD70

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    Speer's 250 grain at the speed that the 35 Whelen makes is bad medicine for any large animal plus they are plenty accurate, use a 14 twist barrel for best results but a 16 twist will do with enough speed.
     
  13. bozo699

    bozo699 Site $$ Contributor

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    These worked great in my Whelen also, I only used them in thick brush on Elk but they did the job great.
    Wayne.
     
  14. wboggs

    wboggs Site $$ Contributor

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    Two recommendations on the Speer and Elk are a large animal. I will test them also for Max. Penetration at around 2300fps which should be my impact velocity at 150 yds or so.
    Thanks for your help. I have plenty of time since the hunt isn't until next Sept.
    Bill
     
  15. fordwrench

    fordwrench

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    i would rec something bigger than the 225 gr bullets. i use 225 sgk from my whelen loaded hot and they really destroy lots of tissue and bone which tell me the are expanding a bit much. they leave holes in whitetails that you cant believe. if i were to hunt game larger i would not use them. for whitetail they are awesome, 98% its bang flop.
     
  16. sewwhat89

    sewwhat89

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    What about the Hawk FP bullets. They would be my choice.
     
  17. wboggs

    wboggs Site $$ Contributor

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    I have used the same bullets at about 2775 fps on deer, same result.
    Judging from the responses to this post, not many want maximum penetration on large game. I realize it is a special nitch but I thought I would learn of any experience among the readers, which I have. In the future I might run some tests and post results.
    Thanks for your imput.
    Bill
     
  18. wboggs

    wboggs Site $$ Contributor

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    I have never used a Hawk bullet. Can you tell me something about them and your experience?
    Thanks
    Bill
     

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