200-20x how fast

[avidflyer]

Looks like a node around 2650-2670 found it easy testing 43.8-44.2. 44.0 looked good. No pressure or bolt lift, going higher anyone at 2750 with varget?

 

[memilanuk]

Ran them up to 2715 with a 30" tube... blew about half the primers on virgin Palma cases... not good. Backed down to 2650-2660, no problems. Next time got a 32" barrel, hit the 2705-2715 node without any real pressure signs, but as round count got up there (beyond 1500) had problems keeping it at that velocity - kept having to add powder. Current barrel is 28", running @ 2605-2610. Faster ain't always better.

 

[paulT]

reaching the higher node 2750fps with varget and the 20X would probably drastically reduce brass life not saying it cant be done but a powder with slower burn rate might be better option,

I ran 215g Hybrids at 2,740fps with varget for my FTR rifle few seasons back they shot great however brass was toast after 1 firing.

 

[T-shooter]

I chronographed a few 200.20X yesterday doing a seating depth test. With a stock Savage 22" barrel they were about 2,575 fps using Hornady Match cases, Federal match primers, and 42.5 grains of Varget. They are run .005" off the lands with a C.O.L. of 3.052". Primers are flattened with a slight cratering but no marks on the cases. The Hornady brass seems to handle hotter loads than Lapua. At .025 jump, the bolt lift was easy. At .010" and .005", the bolt took a little pressure to lift, just enough drag to notice. I ran as much as 42.8g at .025" without any pressure signs on the cases but it groups the best at 42.4g to 42.6g.

 

[Down South]

Looks like a node around 2650-2670 found it easy testing 43.8-44.2. 44.0 looked good. No pressure or bolt lift, going higher anyone at 2750 with varget?

Barrel length? A lot of guys run the speed where you're at (2660 ish) with good success. I'm running a 31 inch barrel and roughly 2700-2730 ish depending on temps but I'm using H4895 and my chamber is throated pretty long. Got 6 firings on the brass (Palma) and is still holding primers. Accuracy is very good.

 

[memilanuk]

my chamber is throated pretty long.

Longer than the 2013 US FTR chamber (0.170" FB)?

H4895 hit the wall pretty hard in my 30" Krieger... even @ 2660 the primer pockets were getting loose after ~3 firing - not bad, but noticeably 'not tight'.

 

[Down South]

Longer than the 2013 US FTR chamber (0.170" FB)?

H4895 hit the wall pretty hard in my 30" Krieger... even @ 2660 the primer pockets were getting loose after ~3 firing - not bad, but noticeably 'not tight'.

I'm jumping .016 and at that seating depth only about 1/3 of the bullet is being held in the neck. It's seated out there pretty long. This particular barrel is a Bartlein 5R (11 twist) and it's fast. I know the twist calculator says this bullet needs a 10 twist but it hammers with this barrel even though it may give up a little BC compared to the faster twist recommended. I shot this load in 90+ degree temps and still have easy bolt lift etc. After 6 firings the pockets are not super tight but usable, for the speed and accuracy I'm getting with this load i'll take not getting 10+ firings on the brass. I think I can get at least 8 firings out of them and possibly more if I were to switch primers as I'm using Fed 205s and the cup diameter is smaller than CCIs or Tula/Wolf. I pull my barrels after 3000 or so rounds anyway and I start with 400 pieces of new brass for every new barrel so if I get 8 firings that's 3200 rounds. I'm good with that for top end performance.

 

[avidflyer]

Barrel length? A lot of guys run the speed where you're at (2660 ish) with good success. I'm running a 31 inch barrel and roughly 2700-2730 ish depending on temps but I'm using H4895 and my chamber is throated pretty long. Got 6 firings on the brass (Palma) and is still holding primers. Accuracy is very good.

30 inch barrel May try h4895 but have 30 lbs of varget I'd like to burn up

 

[savageshooter86]

H4895 and I'm over 2700 fps in 30" barrel. Seems to shoot well. I need to fine tune but shows promise

 

[Ned Ludd]

As Jade mentioned, quite a few people using Varget and a 30" barrel with the 200.20xs (with COALs in the 3.100" to 3.120" range) are finding an accuracy node in the 2630 to 2650 fps range. H4895 will net you about 20-30 fps greater velocity than with Varget at the sweet spot. I'm running H4895 and am getting ~2660 fps. So far brass life is fine and the ~ 59.5K psi predicted pressure (Quickload) is well under SAAMI MAX (62K). Even standard Lapua .308 brass would tolerate this load for some time. If your predicted pressure (QL) starts getting into the 63-64K psi range (or higher), even Palma brass will start to suffer. For my H4895/2660 fps load, QL predicts the OBT Node (Node 4) to be at about 2740 fps and over 67K psi. No chance would I even think about going there, there is simply no need to do anything foolish for a few extra fps velocity.

One thing I have noticed about the difference between H4895 and Varget is the recoil impulse. H4895 gives a slightly sharper "crack", whereas Varget is more of a hard "push". Presumably, the faster burn rate of H4895 contributes to this effect. Either one of those powders (or others as well) that get you into the low/mid 2600s will work very well. Unless you're talking about an increase of 75-100 fps (or more), the difference in wind deflection is so minor as to not be worth discussing. My thought has always been once you're at that point, I'm far more concerned with the pure precision of the load, not an extra 25-50 fps velocity. Of course, if you can both at the same time, why not? However, once I get into the approximate velocity window, I focus on the best grouping.

 

[avidflyer]

As Jade mentioned, quite a few people using Varget and a 30" barrel with the 200.20xs (with COALs in the 3.100" to 3.120" range) are finding an accuracy node in the 2630 to 2650 fps range. H4895 will net you about 20-30 fps greater velocity than with Varget at the sweet spot. I'm running H4895 and am getting ~2660 fps. So far brass life is fine and the ~ 59.5K psi predicted pressure (Quickload) is well under SAAMI MAX (62K). Even standard Lapua .308 brass would tolerate this load for some time. If your predicted pressure (QL) starts getting into the 63-64K psi range (or higher), even Palma brass will start to suffer. For my H4895/2660 fps load, QL predicts the OBT Node (Node 4) to be at about 2740 fps and over 67K psi. No chance would I even think about going there, there is simply no need to do anything foolish for a few extra fps velocity.

One thing I have noticed about the difference between H4895 and Varget is the recoil impulse. H4895 gives a slightly sharper "crack", whereas Varget is more of a hard "push". Presumably, the faster burn rate of H4895 contributes to this effect. Either one of those powders (or others as well) that get you into the low/mid 2600s will work very well. Unless you're talking about an increase of 75-100 fps (or more), the difference in wind deflection is so minor as to not be worth discussing. My thought has always been once you're at that point, I'm far more concerned with the pure precision of the load, not an extra 25-50 fps velocity. Of course, if you can both at the same time, why not? However, once I get into the approximate velocity window, I focus on the best grouping.

have to run the numbers but I think that 2700-2725 window is like 1 inch in a full 10 mph wind Vs 2650. May not be worth getting to it if brass life will suffer which I think is the case

 

[memilanuk]

So... here's a thought. If you run everything through QuickLoad for a 200 gn bullet out of a 30" tube, the OBT numbers work out to somewhere in the low 2500s (2520-2530, I believe) or in the low 2700s (2710-2720). The sweet spots that everybody has been finding are at pretty close to halfways in between - 2650 to 2660, give or take a bit for individual barrels, components, measurement error, etc.

In my experience... this 'in between' or intermediate / 'half' node is plenty accurate... but it's also awful damn fussy. Powder charge and seating depth have to be *right* on, and if anything slips, accuracy suffers. When its on, its on. When its off...

Maybe I got 'spoiled' shooting loads that fell right on OBT nodes with the B155.5BT and B185BT bullets... nodes so wide and fat that you could dang near *throw* charges and they'd still shoot good (not that I'd recommend that, but you get the idea). Seating depth? Meh, get it close. Barrel wear making the throat move? Not really a concern. Different batch of primers? No worries.

We keep trying to find a way to hit that upper node, even to the point of sacrificing brass life. Maybe even sacrificing barrel life - I've been seeing some disturbing things in my bore scope over the last three barrels. Pretty sure if I wanted competitive barrel life of 1500-2000rds, I should be shooting F-Open. 3000rds of good accurate competitive barrel life with 200gn bullets seems to be pretty rare from the folks I talk to.

Recently shot with someone who was just happily plunking those 200.20Xs in the 10 and X ring... running at the lower node @ somewhere a little over 2500. That's a guesstimate, as they don't have a chrono. But it got me wondering... and I'm thinking I may have to do some experimenting during the off-season and see what I can see. The downside? A 200.20X running at that lower node doesn't edge out a 185 Juggernaut by very much. It may come down to more accuracy, or at least more stable accuracy, and having to read the wind a little better.

The other option is to find some other powder that gets to that upper node, without wrecking the brass and taking stupid risks. Maybe 2000MR? But then you have other complications crop up - temperature sensitivity, powder availability, etc. etc. Different chamber configuration - maybe a longer throat, along with a slightly slower powder?

All I know for sure is that I'm not a huge fan of the current status quo. Yes, it works. No, I don't particularly like the way it chews through barrels and brass.

YMMV,

Monte

 

[Ned Ludd]

Monte - I'm dealing with the exact same issue with two .223 Rem rifles in which I'm running the 90 VLDs at ~2850 fps with H4895. And yes, it does get old. However, as you pointed out, even though the 2650 - 2660-ish fps node with the 200.20Xs is not an OBT Node, it seems to work well enough for a lot of people. Rather than have yet another rifle/load that goes through brass like a hot knife through butter, I decided to leave well enough alone with the .200.20X load . I would point out that the staus quo with the 200.20Xs is really little different than the multitude of folks running straight .284s with 180 Hybrids in Open. Until such time as a reliable improvement to that combo is found, F-Open (and by analogy, F-TR) is a pretty level playing field load-wise. It still usually boils down to the shooter, which isn't such a bad place to be.

 

[Down South]

So... here's a thought. If you run everything through QuickLoad for a 200 gn bullet out of a 30" tube, the OBT numbers work out to somewhere in the low 2500s (2520-2530, I believe) or in the low 2700s (2710-2720). The sweet spots that everybody has been finding are at pretty close to halfways in between - 2650 to 2660, give or take a bit for individual barrels, components, measurement error, etc.

In my experience... this 'in between' or intermediate / 'half' node is plenty accurate... but it's also awful damn fussy. Powder charge and seating depth have to be *right* on, and if anything slips, accuracy suffers. When its on, its on. When its off...

Maybe I got 'spoiled' shooting loads that fell right on OBT nodes with the B155.5BT and B185BT bullets... nodes so wide and fat that you could dang near *throw* charges and they'd still shoot good (not that I'd recommend that, but you get the idea). Seating depth? Meh, get it close. Barrel wear making the throat move? Not really a concern. Different batch of primers? No worries.

We keep trying to find a way to hit that upper node, even to the point of sacrificing brass life. Maybe even sacrificing barrel life - I've been seeing some disturbing things in my bore scope over the last three barrels. Pretty sure if I wanted competitive barrel life of 1500-2000rds, I should be shooting F-Open. 3000rds of good accurate competitive barrel life with 200gn bullets seems to be pretty rare from the folks I talk to.

Recently shot with someone who was just happily plunking those 200.20Xs in the 10 and X ring... running at the lower node @ somewhere a little over 2500. That's a guesstimate, as they don't have a chrono. But it got me wondering... and I'm thinking I may have to do some experimenting during the off-season and see what I can see. The downside? A 200.20X running at that lower node doesn't edge out a 185 Juggernaut by very much. It may come down to more accuracy, or at least more stable accuracy, and having to read the wind a little better.

The other option is to find some other powder that gets to that upper node, without wrecking the brass and taking stupid risks. Maybe 2000MR? But then you have other complications crop up - temperature sensitivity, powder availability, etc. etc. Different chamber configuration - maybe a longer throat, along with a slightly slower powder?

All I know for sure is that I'm not a huge fan of the current status quo. Yes, it works. No, I don't particularly like the way it chews through barrels and brass.

YMMV,

Monte

Monte,

Been there and done that with 2000MR, shot about 20 lbs. of it. Speed is great with it but it can get wonky in the heat from what I've seen as it tends to shoot best on the high end and isn't as stable as the Hodgdon Extreme powders. Not going back to it, stick with H4895, Varget, or H4350 "IF" you can use a 4 foot drop tube and get enough in the case.....lol

My last barrel that shot so well (32 inch Bartlein 5R) was used it's whole life with Varget (210 JLKs @ 2640-2650 ish) & H4895 (200 Hybrids @ 2685-2690 ish). Both loads were outstanding in this barrel, when I shot the 200-13X @ 1000 yards it had 2200 rounds on the barrel and later in another match I shot 200-16X @ 600 yards and I think I had 2600-2800 rounds on the barrel at the time. I pulled it off at 3100 rounds if I remember correctly even though it was still shooting awesome and throat really didn't look bad at all. I get nervous when barrels get over 3000 rounds so I don't take a chance of them going out in a match, especially a big match. Maybe I've been lucky with getting good barrels that last pretty long but 3000 good rounds seems to be the norm with mine. I keep my barrels pretty clean, maybe that has something to do with it? I have no idea.

 

[Down South]

have to run the numbers but I think that 2700-2725 window is like 1 inch in a full 10 mph wind Vs 2650. May not be worth getting to it if brass life will suffer which I think is the case

It's not worth it trying to get up there if the accuracy isn't at least as good or better and brass will last at least 5-8 firings. Only reason I'm running that high is because that's where mine is most accurate and it's not killing my brass in a couple firings.

 

[6BRinNZ]

Is it worth chasing the 200.20x over the 185s? doesn't look to be much/enough in it?
What are the thoughts - anyone going to drop back to 185s?

 

[avidflyer]

spent all morning at range couldnt get a good load. Nothing even close to 1/3- 1/4 min from 5 off to 35 off varget load thought 44.0 looked good but no repeat. stopped off and bought 8lbs of h4895 and federal 205m primers...gonna get back at it tomorrow. used rem 71/2 primers... usually use cci br primers new palma brass.

 

[memilanuk]

Is it worth chasing the 200.20x over the 185s? doesn't look to be much/enough in it?
What are the thoughts - anyone going to drop back to 185s?

cut-n-pasted from another discussion elsewhere...

So... last year @ the U.S. F/TR team practice there was some discussion of the upcoming 200.20X. Bryan Litz put a sheet up on the projector showing the left hand side of this graph, hand drawn, comparing the 200.20X to the 200 Hybrid at normal speeds and twist rates, both plain and pointed. In light of our recent discussion on 185s vs 200s, Berger vs. Nosler, I decided to expand it to include the 185 Juggernaut and our old friend, the 155.5 Fullbore.

I thought it looked pretty cool, and started digging around and found some software (Graphviz) that could generate this sort of graph programatically. FWIW, if you have a particular pet programming language, they probably have a package with hooks for graphviz. I just installed the basic `graphviz` package on my laptop (Ubuntu) and used that.

The numbers used in the plot are approximate i.e. .330 vs .328 or .331, for the sake of rounding and to keep things from getting too out of hand. The projectiles with sharper noses like the 20X and the Hybrid, enjoy more of a benefit from pointing (5% and 4%, respectively) than the 185 Juggernaut and 155.5 Fullbore (1% and 2% respectively). I used the stability calculator @ Berger's website to come up with the adjusted BCs for different twist rates. I was going to put a few more twist rates and velocities to cover the spread of what people use, but it looks like the BCs don't change (improve) much when the twist rate is sufficiently fast. The BC does however, drop off notably when the twist rate isn't quite enough.

...which leads to one interesting thing I noticed while putting this together: There isn't a whole lot of difference in wind between my 200 Hybrid load (unpointed, running at or below 2650 fps, 11 twist barrel) and Stan's load with a 185 Juggernaut (unpointed, running at or above 2800fps, in a 12 twist barrel). Ironically, the recoil numbers work out to be almost identical.

After that point of convergence, though... things start to separate fairly quickly. The 200.20X makes the gap even bigger. In my opinion/experience, the 185s are far easier to get to shoot... but you have to be more on the ball with your wind reading.

 

[BP1]

Do any of you fellas or have any of you tried out a gain twist barrel with the 200s.I wonder if it would be a positive or negative thing to try.

 

[ballisticdaddy]

It's not worth it trying to get up there if the accuracy isn't at least as good or better and brass will last at least 5-8 firings. Only reason I'm running that high is because that's where mine is most accurate and it's not killing my brass in a couple firings.

So i am in the midst of load development running a 30" Bartlein 5R Heavy Palma barrel and found a node at 2,621 fps (ES=9 / SD=3.3) at 43.0 grains of Varget. It looks like there is another node at 2,692 fps (ES=16 / SD=7.2) at 44.0 grains of Varget. My question is that I do not see any pressure signs on the brass and no stiff bolt lift so is it worth chasing the higher node?