Powder Valley Sinclair Int'l Midsouth Shooters Bruno Shooters' Supply Bullets.com Shooting Supplies Lapua Products at Grafs.com Click to Donate to Site
By Clicking HERE to Shop at Amazon.com You Can Help Support the Forum.

Author Topic: 223 Lake City Brass vs Remington Brass  (Read 2471 times)

Offline K9I449

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Basic Member
  • *
  • Posts: 14
223 Lake City Brass vs Remington Brass
« on: 05:05 PM, 04/11/13 »
  • Reply
  • My buddy keep telling me that Lake City Brass in 223 Remington will give high pressures than normal 223 Remington Brass, with the same load. 



    Offline hothead

    • Trade Count: (+8)
    • Member
    • **
    • Posts: 95
    223 Lake City Brass vs Remington Brass
    « Reply #1 on: 05:19 PM, 04/11/13 »
  • Reply
  • Not true. it is very close in weight.  so no load differance. GI brass in 308 is a differant story.

    Offline bigedp51

    • Trade Count: (0)
    • Ace Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 1284
    223 Lake City Brass vs Remington Brass
    « Reply #2 on: 05:33 PM, 04/11/13 »
  • Reply
  • Lake City and Remington .223/5.56 cartridge case are very close in "average" case weight, "BUT" Remington cases can vary in weight far more than Lake City cases do. Meaning the commercial Remington cases will also vary in case capacity more than Military Lake City cases.

    I have Remington .223 cases the vary in weight from 90 to over 94 grains, and in these Remington cases I only load them to 24.7 grains of H335 for practice in my AR15 rifles.



    What is also important to know is the military cases have mil-spec hardness requirements and are tougher and made for higher pressures. (Lake City cases are built Ford truck tough)  ;D










    When the M16 rifle was first introduced military contract 5.56 ammunition was linked to part of the M16 jamming problem and the military set new hardness standards for military cases. (commercial brass was too soft)

    « Last Edit: 05:39 PM, 04/11/13 by bigedp51 »


    Offline treeman

    • Trade Count: (+9)
    • Ace Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 923
    223 Lake City Brass vs Remington Brass
    « Reply #3 on: 05:39 PM, 04/11/13 »
  • Reply
  • I find winchester and lake city brass to be very close in every aspect i.e. avg. wt, avg neck thickness, avg. neck thickness variation.   don't know about hardness.  remington  has a much wider variation all the way around
    aim for the blue

    Offline ar10ar15man

    • Trade Count: (+1)
    • Senior Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 259
    223 Lake City Brass vs Remington Brass
    « Reply #4 on: 07:52 PM, 04/11/13 »
  • Reply
  • LAKE CITY  does not make 223 REMINGTON brass.....

    Offline bigedp51

    • Trade Count: (0)
    • Ace Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 1284
    223 Lake City Brass vs Remington Brass
    « Reply #5 on: 09:40 PM, 04/11/13 »
  • Reply
  • LAKE CITY  does not make 223 REMINGTON brass.....

    Lake City didn't make 7.62×63mm brass either.  ::)

    « Last Edit: 10:02 PM, 04/11/13 by bigedp51 »


    Offline Lapua40X

    • Site $$ Contributor
    • Trade Count: (+12)
    • Ace Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 1122
    • California Hunter Education Instructor
    223 Lake City Brass vs Remington Brass
    « Reply #6 on: 09:52 PM, 04/11/13 »
  • Reply
  • LAKE CITY  does not make 223 REMINGTON brass.....

    I'm sitting here looking at a .223 cartridge (reload) with "L C 0 8" headstamp.  What do I have????
    « Last Edit: 09:54 PM, 04/11/13 by Lapua40X »
    NRA Life Member
    California Hunter Safety Meritorious Service 1971 - 1972.

    Offline ar10ar15man

    • Trade Count: (+1)
    • Senior Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 259
    223 Lake City Brass vs Remington Brass
    « Reply #7 on: 10:26 PM, 04/11/13 »
  • Reply
  • please post a pic of the case head...if it says 223...
    somehow i bet it does not

    my lake city 08( i have a 1000 or so) are marked:
    LC 08  ( at 6 o'clock) and the nato circle cross ( at 12 o'clock)

    it does not say 223 rem nor 223 remington..anywhere

    lc makes 5.56 nato/ 5.56 x45 ..but no 223 remington..none


    LAKE CITY  does not make 223 REMINGTON brass.....

    I'm sitting here looking at a .223 cartridge (reload) with "L C 0 8" headstamp.  What do I have????

    Offline bigedp51

    • Trade Count: (0)
    • Ace Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 1284
    223 Lake City Brass vs Remington Brass
    « Reply #8 on: 10:28 PM, 04/11/13 »
  • Reply
  • LAKE CITY  does not make 223 REMINGTON brass.....

    I'm sitting here looking at a .223 cartridge (reload) with "L C 0 8" headstamp.  What do I have????

    I'll take a guess and say a metric conversion page from the Sierra reloading manual.  ::)

     

    I have a .223/5.56mm speedometer that also works in Canada.  ;)

     

    Offline ar10ar15man

    • Trade Count: (+1)
    • Senior Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 259
    223 Lake City Brass vs Remington Brass
    « Reply #9 on: 12:57 AM, 04/12/13 »
  • Reply
  • THEY are not the SAME......
    one can get in trouble shooting hot modern military 5.56 in a target chambered 223 rem..

    as a side note, because so many people shoot 5.56 in thier 223's ,there is very few companies that produce 5.56 ammo this is loaded past 223 rem specs in the states

    Offline jonbearman

    • Site $$ Contributor
    • Trade Count: (+174)
    • Ace Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6979
    • I live in new york state,how unfortunate !
    223 Lake City Brass vs Remington Brass
    « Reply #10 on: 01:54 AM, 04/12/13 »
  • Reply
  • We need to calm down and not get angry with every post.This subject has been covered many times and many shooters have actually used nato ammo in todays lawyer chambers with no problems.I am not saying it is ok,but I think the debate has been covered so many times that most shooters who read the manual that comes with their sporter recognize the difference.We debate and we should be respectful even when we disagree.Lets keep it civil and enjoy what we love to do(talk about shooting) without loosing it.Imho.
    jon t lennon and Norman who is a german shorthair,my buddy!

    Offline bigedp51

    • Trade Count: (0)
    • Ace Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 1284
    223 Lake City Brass vs Remington Brass
    « Reply #11 on: 10:49 AM, 04/12/13 »
  • Reply
  • THEY are not the SAME......
    one can get in trouble shooting hot modern military 5.56 in a target chambered 223 rem..

    as a side note, because so many people shoot 5.56 in thier 223's ,there is very few companies that produce 5.56 ammo this is loaded past 223 rem specs in the states

    The SAAMI interchangeability warning for the .223 and 5.56 didn't come out until 1979 with the introduction of the military M855 round and the M16s newer longer throat and twist rate change.

    My Stevens 200 .223 bolt action has a 1 in 9 twist and a longer throat than either of my two AR15 rifles, and came that way from the factory.

    .223 SAAMI pressure using the copper crusher, 52,000 cup
    .223 SAAMI pressure using the piezo transducer, 55,000 psi
    .223 European CIP using a piezo transducer, 62,000 psi



    If you fire a military M855 cartridge in a .223 rifle with a short throat the pressure will be 5,000 psi higher than the "rated" chamber pressure of the .223. The military M193 ammunition is loaded to the same exact pressures as the .223 and was fired in M16 rifles with a short throat.  ;)

    « Last Edit: 10:51 AM, 04/12/13 by bigedp51 »

    Offline ar10ar15man

    • Trade Count: (+1)
    • Senior Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 259
    223 Lake City Brass vs Remington Brass
    « Reply #12 on: 11:09 AM, 04/12/13 »
  • Reply
  • nice pics and chart..
    but you did not mention that the 223 cip figure is the same pressure as 5.56x45 nato cip...4300bar

    and how did you determine that one would only see a 5000 psi rise shooting m855 5.56 in a "short throat" 223 rem chamber ??

    the safety fsctor in proof testing runs 25%/30%..so typically a small rise in pressure is pretty well covered...

    and what happens with a 77gr sie otm designated marksman round ?

    or an army heavy bullet SPECIAL PURPOSE round ?

    until very recently one coulld not buy 5.56 NATO dies for reloading, all dies were 223 remington.

    Offline bigedp51

    • Trade Count: (0)
    • Ace Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 1284
    223 Lake City Brass vs Remington Brass
    « Reply #13 on: 11:56 AM, 04/12/13 »
  • Reply
  • The European CIP considers the .308/7.62 and the .223/5.56 to be the same cartridges at the same pressure levels.

    The CIP pressure figure of 62,000 psi is exactly the same pressure as the SAAMI transducer pressure of 55,000 psi. The CIP and SAAMI transducers are located at different locations on the case and give different readings for the "EXACT SAME PRESSURE". 

    The pressure confusion started when we switched from the copper crusher "CUP" to the transducer method "PSI". And was further confused by using the European CIP standard for NATO test results. 

    M193 military ammo is loaded to the same exact pressure as SAAMI .223 ammunition. M855 military ammo is loaded to the same pressure level "BUT" has a longer throat. (a short throat will cause a pressure increase) When military 5.56 M855 ammo is fired in a .223 with a short throat designed for lighter bullets and a 1 in 14 or 1 in 12 twist you will have higher pressures.

    Again the SAAMI interchangeability warning for the .223/5.56 did not come out until 1979 when the military started using the new military M855 ammunition.

    Below actual strain gauge pressure testing.

     5.56 vs .223 – What You Know May Be Wrong
    http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/5-56-vs-223/

    As a side note this is why I was asking about Quickload pressures the other day, if you switch from 5.56x45 NATO to .223 SAAMI using the same powder charge and bullet the pressure doesn't change. Quickload does not account for different throat lengths.  :o
    « Last Edit: 12:04 PM, 04/12/13 by bigedp51 »

    Offline ar10ar15man

    • Trade Count: (+1)
    • Senior Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 259
    223 Lake City Brass vs Remington Brass
    « Reply #14 on: 01:13 PM, 04/12/13 »
  • Reply

  • but the PRESSURE LIMIT drops back to 55kpsi......

    remeber its a tool and its about a cartridge..not a gun....it does account for burn time and bbl lenght, but there is no way to account for every reamer on the market...
    it is a tool..and you need to learn how to use the tool...
    it is not a bible...


    As a side note this is why I was asking about Quickload pressures the other day, if you switch from 5.56x45 NATO to .223 SAAMI using the same powder charge and bullet the pressure doesn't change. Quickload does not account for different throat lengths.  :o


     

    Recent Classifieds

    DONATE HERE

    Sold Stuff Here? Donations Keep our Classifieds Free.




    Facebook LINK

    Advertise

    CLASSIFIEDS RULES

    All sellers must have a complete Forum profile, including City, State, and VALID email address. All sellers must provide current true identity, phone number and address to buyer on request.

    All sellers must enable their email and private message options.

    Sellers MUST state an asking price for all listed goods, which may be supplemented by a request for offers. This site does not provide auction functionality, so there is no automated procedure to accept, qualify, or rank bids.

    All sellers must mark sold items as "SOLD". And delete your ads when the transaction is complete. A "stickie" explains how to do this.

    All sellers must disclose if the item is posted for sale elsewhere and state that the item is "subject to prior sale."

    Any seller who uses deceptive photos, lies about key components or major defects will have his advert deleted without notice and is subject to being banned from the Forum forever.

    PROHIBITED PRODUCTS

    1. Damaged or bulged barrels (unless they are sold only as salvage metal and are clearly described as "not to be used with live ammunition".)

    2. Loaded ammunition that has been loaded or reloaded by a private party (e.g. NOT factory-loaded ammo).

    3. Hand-mixed powders of any kind, or powder of unknown origin/date/burn rate.

    4. Any actions, rifles, or sound suppressors with damaged or obscured serial numbers.

    5. Scopes with broken internals or broken lenses.

    Commercial Ads
    Commercial businesses which are current, paying sponsors may post Classifieds. These shall be posted in the "Commercial Sales" area ONLY. If you sell products commercially, and are NOT paying for advertising, you are NOT allowed to post Forum classifieds. Companies in violation will be black-balled.

    POLICY VIOLATIONS
    Any member selling/trading any item(s) on this board who accepts monies from another member without sending out the items purchased will be permanently banned from the Forum.