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Author Topic: removing inside neck donuts?  (Read 3662 times)

Offline lurcher

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removing inside neck donuts?
« Reply #15 on: 07:56 PM, 02/25/12 »
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  • Do any other manufacturers like k&m make cutters with various angles to suit different calibers? Sounds like a good idea


    Offline Mooster1223

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    removing inside neck donuts?
    « Reply #16 on: 09:17 PM, 02/25/12 »
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  • I am using the 21st cent lathe. My initial turnings, I did not get far enough into the shoulder because this is an ai chamber. I have the 40 degree cutter but, the parent case has a 20 degree shoulder.

    My second run of cases, I went further into the shoulder than before but, its not ideal because he cutter does not match the shoulder angle initially. At $2 per case, i'm trying to save my first batch by reaming.

    When I do my second turning on formed brass, I am cutting into the shoulder a little deeper. Hopefully, reaming and cutting deeper will keep them down to a minimum.

    Offline fguffey

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    removing inside neck donuts?
    « Reply #17 on: 09:18 AM, 02/26/12 »
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  • Mooster1223, I disagree, I have said do-nuts can be caused by bad habits, not a problem but when I disagree it brings out the ugly in some, do-nuts that are not caused by bad habits happen by design  then there is the failure  of understanding what causes do-nuts.

    http://www.midwaysverige.net/RCBS-Neck-Reamer-Die-25-300-Winchester-Short-Magnum-WSM


    F. Guffey


    Offline jo191145

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    removing inside neck donuts?
    « Reply #18 on: 10:30 AM, 02/26/12 »
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  •  [/quote]

    My "bushing" also bumps the shoulder so, that isn't an option.
    [/quote]


    Odd, I never heard of a bushing bumping shoulders.
    Shoulders are usually bumped by the die with the bushing being adjustable in depth.
     What kind of dies are you using?
    Powder charges by Creighton Audette. Seating depths by Virgil King. Attitude by Ayn Rand =)

    Offline fguffey

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    removing inside neck donuts?
    « Reply #19 on: 12:05 PM, 02/26/12 »
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  • “My second run of cases, I went further into the shoulder than before but, its not ideal because he cutter does not match the shoulder angle initially. At $2 per case, I'm trying to save my first batch by reaming”.

    ”When I do my second turning on formed brass, I am cutting into the shoulder a little deeper. Hopefully, reaming  deeper will keep them down to a minimum”.

    and a smith built a wildcat, went to the range and fired 5 rounds, then removed the bolt and checked the bore, no light coming through, he checked his last fired case, no neck, then he checked the first 4 cases fired, no necks on any of them, and he said to me “This wildcatting and getting information off the Internet is not what it is crapped up to be”, I offered to get involved, but, at that time he was not interested and did not care.

    F. Guffey

    There is a die that uses a bushing, I call it a ‘do-nut’ making  die, it does not make donuts by design but when the user/owner gets fancy with the adjustments, ‘there they are’.

    Offline timeout

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    removing inside neck donuts?
    « Reply #20 on: 02:27 PM, 02/26/12 »
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  • Mooster1223,
    You can push that donut out with a mandrel and then turn it off, I would highly recommend NOT trying to neck ream with a drill, they will not self align until at least they are in the neck aways and then it will be to late,..the brass will be ruined!!  You can use the reamers though, Get yourself a Wilson case holder that will hold your case, wrap paper or emery cloth around it and chuck it up in a lathe, put the ream in the tailstock chuck and you will be able to remove your donuts, after doing that I like to use steel wool or Scott's brite and polish the inside of the neck, make sure you remove all brass and steel wool from inside the case before reloading.
    Wayne.

    Thanks. I have the little do-dad from 21st Century that is designed to be chucked up in a drill and then there is an o-ring that seats in the primer pocket. You hand tighten the locking collar. Can I presume that this will work to chuck the brass in the lathe? I am also planning on sizing the brass before reaming the necks as well.

    I have a 21st Century turner with lathe. Since the turner arbor does not have a carbide cutter like the K&M, I contacted John @ 21st Century. He told me that he uses a reamer in a drill press to do the inside of the case necks. John said to order a reamer .001" larger than the bullet diameter. I agree with you Wayne, that trying to ream the case neck that way will ruin the brass due to misalignment. I have ordered a reamer now that is .0005" smaller than the one John recommended. It will be here tomorrow, but I am not confident that will work yet either. I have invested a lot of dollars in the equipment and still do not have the answers. I find that following the initial expanding of the neck, there is always a small amount of brass near the bottom (inside) that needs removed. Perhaps using a lathe as you have suggested is the answer. Problem is that I do not have a lathe and I expect most casual shooters do not. I do like the carbide cutters ground to the case shoulder angle of a particular caliber that 21st Century sells. It just seems there has to be a better way to deal with the inside of the case neck. Perhaps I am too fussy, but I want the inside surface of the neck "true" and smooth. The only thing I can think of would be a reamer with a pilot at the bottom and no fluting until about 1/4" above the pilot.


    Offline jo191145

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    « Reply #21 on: 02:28 PM, 02/26/12 »
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  • “My second run of cases, I went further into the shoulder than before but, its not ideal because he cutter does not match the shoulder angle initially. At $2 per case, I'm trying to save my first batch by reaming”.

    ”When I do my second turning on formed brass, I am cutting into the shoulder a little deeper. Hopefully, reaming  deeper will keep them down to a minimum”.

    and a smith built a wildcat, went to the range and fired 5 rounds, then removed the bolt and checked the bore, no light coming through, he checked his last fired case, no neck, then he checked the first 4 cases fired, no necks on any of them, and he said to me “This wildcatting and getting information off the Internet is not what it is crapped up to be”, I offered to get involved, but, at that time he was not interested and did not care.

    I agree with your preface. Turn too far into the shoulder and you'll wish you kept the donuts ;)

    As for the story itself I find it interestingly odd. Could'nt be much of a smith if he failed to notice missing necks while fireforming a wildcat.
    Should have been carefully inspecting his cases for excess pressure or not enough.
    Wonder where those necks went? You can't stack them up in the chamber unless your fireforming "lets say" a 30 cal cartridge and using 6mm bullets to do it.
    And if that were the case he should'nt have been neck turning prior to fireforming anyway.
    I quess he was very lucky to check the bore after the fifth shot which totally occluded the bore while the first four magically disappeared.


    F. Guffey

    There is a die that uses a bushing, I call it a ‘do-nut’ making  die, it does not make donuts by design but when the user/owner gets fancy with the adjustments, ‘there they are’.

    Now if you ever get the time I would like to hear how bushing dies cause donuts. That would definately be interesting
    Powder charges by Creighton Audette. Seating depths by Virgil King. Attitude by Ayn Rand =)

    Offline bozo699

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    removing inside neck donuts?
    « Reply #22 on: 04:22 PM, 02/26/12 »
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  • My "bushing" also bumps the shoulder so, that isn't an option.
    [/quote]


    Odd, I never heard of a bushing bumping shoulders.
    Shoulders are usually bumped by the die with the bushing being adjustable in depth.
     What kind of dies are you using?
    [/quote]
    Jo191145,
    Neil Jones bushing dies are custom dies and the bushings are custom also, they don't use the standard Wilson/Redding bushing, they actually are what bumps the shoulder.

    NEVER, EVER, try to understand what F.Guffey is trying to convey, and don't ask because he doesn't either!

    Timeout,
    The best way I have found to remove donuts are with a Wilson case trimmer, they have a reamer that fits them, they are designed to be used on a fired case if your turning necks they won't touch the case, they may make different sizes I do not know but what I do is I take a caliber size up to a machinist and have him grind it to the size I want on a Brown&Sharp precision grinder, they make other inside reamers for other trimmers but I like the Wilson the best. Buying regular straight in line reamers like you have done is fine and they will work to do the job you are trying to do but you will need a lathe to keep everything in line or you WILL have problems.
    Wayne.
     
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    Offline jo191145

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    removing inside neck donuts?
    « Reply #23 on: 04:32 PM, 02/26/12 »
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  • Thanks Wayne
    I've heard of Neils dies but never used one.
    That is interesting.
    I would have to assume the bottom of the bushing is angled like the shoulders.
    Gonna have to do a little googlin and check this out.
    Once again Thanks.
    Powder charges by Creighton Audette. Seating depths by Virgil King. Attitude by Ayn Rand =)

    Offline bozo699

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    removing inside neck donuts?
    « Reply #24 on: 04:44 PM, 02/26/12 »
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  • Thanks Wayne
    I've heard of Neils dies but never used one.
    That is interesting.
    I would have to assume the bottom of the bushing is angled like the shoulders.
    Gonna have to do a little googlin and check this out.
    Once again Thanks.
    Yes there a large oddly shaped bushing that has the shoulder angle in them, I guess that is one reason he requires three pieces of brass fired three times in your rifle to make you the custom die ;)
    Wayne.
    Liberalism Is A Mental Disorder!!!
    Aim Small Miss Small.

    Offline Mooster1223

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    « Reply #25 on: 08:09 PM, 02/26/12 »
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  • Here is a picture of one of Neil's "bushings".


    Here is a picture of the 21st Century "do-dad" that I'll use to spin the case in the lathe if required. You can also see the bushing in the background as well.

    Offline bozo699

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    « Reply #26 on: 09:57 PM, 02/26/12 »
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  • Here is a picture of one of Neil's "bushings".


    Here is a picture of the 21st Century "do-dad" that I'll use to spin the case in the lathe if required. You can also see the bushing in the background as well.

    Yes that is the same tool as the one for the lathe, only difference is the length of the driver, I have both, nice holders ;)
    Wayne.
    Liberalism Is A Mental Disorder!!!
    Aim Small Miss Small.

    Offline fguffey

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    removing inside neck donuts?
    « Reply #27 on: 09:38 AM, 02/27/12 »
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  • I said I disagree, working brass is known to harden the case, some suggestions recommend pushing the do-not out from the inside with a mandrel or pilot, I am not saying that does expand the inside of the neck at the restriction, I am saying the do-nut/restriction on the inside should be removed from the inside, I know, when someone becomes a bench rest shooter/reloader there are exceptions to rules, I just do not believe there are exemptions to rules.

    Not cheap, RCBS has neck reamer dies, the die and reamer cost about $140.00, the reamer die is a a full length sizer die with a guide in the top for the reamer, for that kind of money a person spending that amount of money can demand accuracy, the die is not unlike dies made by R. Lee and sold in a kit called Target Model, a die with a guide for the reamer, reamer included, and I have no problem purchasing the sets from someone selling the old sets if the reamer is included, Lee, old, worn and torn makes the kit affordable.

    I form cases, I create do-nuts on the inside of the neck, I have formed 22-6mm Remington Improved cases from 30/06 and 26/05, in the process I have reamed the neck and removed the do-nut twice before the cases were formed to .22. A smith,shooter,,reloader was building a version of a 22/6mm Remington wildcat, his failure rate when fire  forming cases was 40%, and appeared to be happy and very proud of the 60%, I know, the decision made when choosing  25/06 and 30/06 cases was flawed. I needed cases that were longer from the head of the case to the shoulder than the parent case, the 7mm57, so I choose the 30/06 and 25/06 (with head stamps that read 30/06 and 25/06), When forming a case it is (my Opinion) easier to move a shoulder back? than fire form to blow it forward?  The shoulder of the 30/06 case is moved? back .218 thousands when forming 7mm57 cases, the question is ‘WHY?’ would someone moved the shoulder to minimum length/full length sized if they do not know  the length of the chamber from the face of the bolt to the shoulder of the chamber, point being, I formed the cases I sent to him with 20 different lengths from go-gage length to +.025 longer than a go-gage length chamber. The instructions: Start chambering the test cases, starting with the longest, until one chambers, once one case chambers send the case to me, then I will form cases that will chamber and will not require fire forming.  (I know) The answer, I do not shoot gages, I form cases to fit and then fire instead of chambering first, firing to get fire formed cases.

    When forming the cases, the neck at the neck/shoulder juncture, was almost closed off at .243, I used #B=to .238 drill first then a 243 Winchester RCBS neck reamer die with reamer to remove the do-nut, the 243 Winchester die will not contact the case body of the 6mm Remington, the reamer should not be used as a core hole drill, cheaper to put the ware on the #B drill bit. Anyhow, when he determine which case would chamber he did not need help.

    F. Guffey

     

    Offline fguffey

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    « Reply #28 on: 10:43 AM, 02/27/12 »
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  • What kind of a gunsmith.....? I am aware of failures, of all the failures I am aware of I know the cause, but, if I said “What kind of a gunsmith was he....? or more direct and rude “ What kind of a gunsmith are you....?” I would be the last person on earth someone would seek help from.

    An Arizona shooter/reloader loaded a tube of primers for his Dillon press, then suddenly, all at once, without warning, it is alleged static electricity set the primers off.  8 pages +, knowing how welcome my suggestions are, I wanted, hoping a perceptive, free thinking, analectic minded, fair and objective  person would just think, nothing, then the story, as fact, moved to another forum and almost got started again, knowing it is not my job to make everyone happy, I said “I can duplicate the catastrophic failure” “I said Dillon can duplicate the failure” I suggested the reloader ‘could have’ dropped the tube, then foolishly grabbed for and caught the tube in the middle, then folded the tube   after catching it on the press, table, chair or floor etc.. Folding a tube full of primers will crush the primers at the fold, crushing primers is the function of the firing pin, yes, we all know primers must be armed, again, think about it, “DO you feel lucky, reloader”?

    I then went on to say I could set up a demonstration  where I would run 40,000 + volts through a primer tube that would require the voltage to jump to the tube, through the tube and off the other end with out igniting the primers,,,,,,and about that time the person making the case for static electric told me to go some where else, I then called Dillon, they listen, they will tell you they destroy primer systems with regularity.

    Another smith built a rifle, loaded his ammo in his newly reorganized reloading room , then went to the range, chambered a round, pulled the trigger, then walked about 15 ft. down range to recover his barrel, and I said

    “Thank you for sharing that with me”

    The necks on the cases were gone, the last one was the reason there was no light visible through the bore, he removed the neck then check the first 4 cases, again, no necks, I suggested he walk the range, I suggested the bullet went first, then the neck wadded up and was blown out the barrel on the first 4, I did say the neck on the 5 case fired could have made it impossible for the bullet to push it out, I said I do not know, anyhow, he swore off of the methods and techniques that got him to the range with cases that did not have necks, and I offered to help, but, and he took me up on the offer, then decided it was just nice to know but not necessary to know.

    F. Guffey

       

     

    Offline lurcher

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    removing inside neck donuts?
    « Reply #29 on: 01:18 PM, 02/27/12 »
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  • Has any one tried removing donuts using a K&M mandrel like this guy?
    http://home.comcast.net/~jesse99/15MOA_Taper.html
    http://home.comcast.net/~jesse99/doughnuts.html


     

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