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Author Topic: Neck lube for seating bullets?  (Read 3713 times)

Offline thefitter

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Neck lube for seating bullets?
« on: 07:09 PM, 01/24/11 »
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  • New to hand loading and I have been told by several people that my seating depth discrepancies are from not having any lube inside the case necks when I'm seating my bullets. I have been told by an equal amount of people that this is BS.

    I need you pros here to set me straight. Thanks


    Offline fullersson

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    Neck lube for seating bullets?
    « Reply #1 on: 07:14 PM, 01/24/11 »
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  • I've never used any lube for bullet seating. Maybe a lower quality seating die or more than likely too much neck tension on the brass.
    "That's not my job." Aren't we glad the Lord didn't feel that way?

    Online jonbearman

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    • I live in new york state,how unfortunate !
    Neck lube for seating bullets?
    « Reply #2 on: 07:15 PM, 01/24/11 »
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  • That is incorrect.You dont lube the necks for the seating procedure.Now sizing may require a little case lube,I use redding wax for that.If the rounds have been fired in the same gun you can neck size only with a redding bushing type full length or neck only type of die.You dont have to full length size every time.You only do this if you have hard bolt turn after neck sizing and try the cases in the gun(select a few from the lot) . What caliber and do you trim to the same length? Give us more imfo,type of gun ,brass and primers,and dies you use.
    Jon  Lennon and Norman who is a german shorthair,my buddy!


    Offline jo191145

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    Neck lube for seating bullets?
    « Reply #3 on: 07:23 PM, 01/24/11 »
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  • Your seating depth discrepancies might arise from measuring the loaded round from base to tip.
    Base to ogive is the correct method. If you do not have the tools to do that you need to trust your seater die until you do.
    If you are seeing discrepancies in base to ogive your either making some very compressed loads with in adequate neck tension or your bullets are junk ;)
    Occassionally seater plugs/dies need a little reworking too.
    Powder charges by Creighton Audette. Seating depths by Virgil King. Attitude by Ayn Rand =)

    Offline thefitter

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    Neck lube for seating bullets?
    « Reply #4 on: 07:28 PM, 01/24/11 »
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  • Thanks

    Disclaimer: I'm not a BR guy but I come here often to learn.

    REM 700 SPS TAC .308

    Yes I trim to length. Forster press and Forster Micrometer seating die. I'm measuring at the ogive.

    Bullets are SMK in 168 and 175. I just started playing with 155 Scenars and it seems that these have less discrepancies. I understand that there are discrepancies in the bullets but if the die is seating off the ogive and the base and I'm measuring off the ogive and the base why does it start to walk after 4-5 rounds?

    Offline jo191145

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    Neck lube for seating bullets?
    « Reply #5 on: 07:41 PM, 01/24/11 »
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  •  :-\
    Are your measurements walking?

    Is the die tight?

    SMK's can be pretty rough. Folks who use them tend to sort by length and they usually shoot best with a jump to the lands. Personally I feel thats because of the built in discrepancies among other things. JMO

    Scenars are at the other end of the spectrum. They're so darn pointy many seating plugs seat them from the tip. You'd need to check your seating plug to determine if it needs to be drilled deeper. I had to do just that on a Hornady 308W seater for the Scenars.

    How much variation are you seeing in your measurements?
    Powder charges by Creighton Audette. Seating depths by Virgil King. Attitude by Ayn Rand =)


    Offline thefitter

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    Neck lube for seating bullets?
    « Reply #6 on: 07:51 PM, 01/24/11 »
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  • :-\
    Are your measurements walking?

    Well I'm trying to be as accurate as possible. I've got a really good caliper.

    Is the die tight?

    Yes I believe so.

    SMK's can be pretty rough. Folks who use them tend to sort by length and they usually shoot best with a jump to the lands. Personally I feel thats because of the built in discrepancies among other things. JMO

    But if its seating off the ogive and I'm measuring off the ogive how can an individual bullet change it?

    Scenars are at the other end of the spectrum. They're so darn pointy many seating plugs seat them from the tip. You'd need to check your seating plug to determine if it needs to be drilled deeper. I had to do just that on a Hornady 308W seater for the Scenars.

    I'm doing better with these.

    How much variation are you seeing in your measurements?

    .003 +/-

    Offline jo191145

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    Neck lube for seating bullets?
    « Reply #7 on: 08:11 PM, 01/24/11 »
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  • In reality the seater does not seat off the ogive. It would damage the bullet attempting it. In reality your comparator is not measuring off the ogive either but probably closer to it than the seater.
    So its possible theres a littlle variation right there.

    I never like to see more than .001" difference in bullet measurements. Usually thats what I get with no troubleshooting.
    If they're SMK's you can expect a tad more.

    If you haven't already, pull that seater apart. Clean out the packing grease.
    Check the seater plug on your Scenars. Lightly insert one and see if theres any wiggle (you need to look close, feel is probably better) Try a few.
    Upon visual inspection I determined my plug ended too abruptly. I drilled it deeper with an 1/8" drill to allow the tip of the Scenar a void.

    "Maybe" thats what your seeing. Never used a Forster die or press.
    Powder charges by Creighton Audette. Seating depths by Virgil King. Attitude by Ayn Rand =)

    Offline thefitter

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    Neck lube for seating bullets?
    « Reply #8 on: 08:27 PM, 01/24/11 »
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  • In reality the seater does not seat off the ogive. It would damage the bullet attempting it. In reality your comparator is not measuring off the ogive either but probably closer to it than the seater.
    So its possible theres a littlle variation right there.

    But I set the die to my comparator?

    I never like to see more than .001" difference in bullet measurements. Usually thats what I get with no troubleshooting.
    If they're SMK's you can expect a tad more.

    If you haven't already, pull that seater apart. Clean out the packing grease.

    I'll try that tomorrow.
    Check the seater plug on your Scenars. Lightly insert one and see if theres any wiggle (you need to look close, feel is probably better) Try a few.
    Upon visual inspection I determined my plug ended too abruptly. I drilled it deeper with an 1/8" drill to allow the tip of the Scenar a void.

    "Maybe" thats what your seeing. Never used a Forster die or press.

    Offline fullersson

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    Neck lube for seating bullets?
    « Reply #9 on: 08:55 PM, 01/24/11 »
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  • Dirty primer pockets can cause the primer to not seat flush. If some primers seat flush and some do not that could be part of the problem.
    "That's not my job." Aren't we glad the Lord didn't feel that way?

    Offline BillSlattery

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    Neck lube for seating bullets?
    « Reply #10 on: 08:58 PM, 01/24/11 »
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  • Offline in2deep

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    Neck lube for seating bullets?
    « Reply #11 on: 09:15 PM, 01/24/11 »
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  • If the intent is to check the distance from base to ogive in order to seat the bullet at the same place in the rifling each time it seems like our tools (comparators) don't even measure near the area of interest? Maybe we need better comparator inserts that measure lower on the bullet closer to the ogive.
     Also have you checked your tools/technique to see what kind of error you are getting in the measurement repeatadly checking the same bullet and averaging it out could be you have .0015 to start out with.?  Switching to the stainless sinclair insert over my prior aluminum inserts increased my accuracy by almost .001 combined with a little technique someone shared about twisting the case in the comparator to get better repeatability.
    « Last Edit: 09:17 PM, 01/24/11 by in2deep »

    Offline thefitter

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    Neck lube for seating bullets?
    « Reply #12 on: 09:39 PM, 01/24/11 »
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  • If the intent is to check the distance from base to ogive in order to seat the bullet at the same place in the rifling each time it seems like our tools (comparators) don't even measure near the area of interest? Maybe we need better comparator inserts that measure lower on the bullet closer to the ogive.
     Also have you checked your tools/technique to see what kind of error you are getting in the measurement repeatadly checking the same bullet and averaging it out could be you have .0015 to start out with.?  Switching to the stainless sinclair insert over my prior aluminum inserts increased my accuracy by almost .001 combined with a little technique someone shared about twisting the case in the comparator to get better repeatability.

    Yes I have the SS Sinclair and I do the twisting you mentioned.

    fullersson - I use SS media so the primer pockets are very clean. Also after priming I do a feel test to check seating.

    Thanks

    Offline tom

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    Neck lube for seating bullets?
    « Reply #13 on: 10:00 PM, 01/24/11 »
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  • you don't need to lube them no. but what method are you using to clean the inside of your necks?


    Offline bozo699

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    Neck lube for seating bullets?
    « Reply #14 on: 10:07 PM, 01/24/11 »
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  • :-\
    Are your measurements walking?


    Is the die tight?

    SMK's can be pretty rough. Folks who use them tend to sort by length and they usually shoot best with a jump to the lands. Personally I feel thats because of the built in discrepancies among other things. JMO

    Scenars are at the other end of the spectrum. They're so darn pointy many seating plugs seat them from the tip. You'd need to check your seating plug to determine if it needs to be drilled deeper. I had to do just that on a Hornady 308W seater for the Scenars.

    How much variation are you seeing in your measurements?
    I had the same problem with the same brand Joe.

    thefitter,
    Welcome to the forum, I have read through the replies to your op and there is some very good advice here. I have found the Sinclair and Hornady comparator inserts to be marginal @ best for repeatability. I have found for me I get the best results using a caliper type comparator tool to use two of them back to back  for measuring bullets, I try to use the same pressure every time I run the caliper in and out a few times ( the same amount ) and rotate the bullet each time, I repeat this process several times and write down the average measurement then I do this with several more bullets and take a average from them, I will then pick a middle of the row bullet from the pile as long as as the range of lengths wasn't to wide if it was I will separate into dixi cups the different lengths, anyway I take the middle of the row bullet and use it to set my seating die's seating depth. I then remove one of the comparators and measure my loaded rounds the same as I did my bullets. I use several steps and rotate each time use the same pressure each time, do it on several rounds that had bullets of the same length and take a average of that, the average spread shouldn't be much ;) There are better tools for the job IMO and I have improved on the inserts of the sinclair tool to give more of a repeatable measurements without the bullets sticking in the inserts. But for the tools you have you should be able to get the desirable results if you take your time and repeat each of your actions the same.Removing variables in our components is necessary for extreme accuracy, that also includes removing any variables in ourselves and processes.
    Hope some of this may help :)
    Wayne.   
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